Today we hosted the co-founders of the protocol based, De-Fi company Aleph Zero, Antoni Zolciak and Adam Gągel. Apart from discussing what they’re working on (Decentralized Exchanges 2.0 among other things) we talked about ICOs making a comeback, the bull market, and why Charlie Lee has a problem with De-Fi.
Watch this Episode on YouTube:
Today we hosted the co-founders of the protocol based, De-Fi company Aleph Zero, Antoni Zolciak and Adam Gągel. Apart from discussing what they’re working on (Decentralized Exchanges 2.0 among other things) we talked about ICOs making a comeback, the bull market, and why Charlie Lee has a problem with De-Fi.
Watch this Episode on YouTube:
the opinions expressed in this podcast are the opinions of the host and his individual guests and should not be taken as any particular investment advice. Look, trade. What is up? Everybody. So this is the first podcast we're doing and probably a month. And it's all my fault. I was m i A. I was first. I went to be D c. Miami. Then I came back with what I thought was the Corona virus. And it was just a bad flu for week and 1/2. And I had to fly to Dubai. So I'm back. We're doing the podcast. We're here with Antic and Adam from Ah, Olive zero. Funny story. You guys were actually here? Yes, the first guests.
That's correct. First of all, happy to be here. Thanks for having us again, I guess.
S Oh, it's a podcast. That happen? And then it didn't happen because we believe that it
that's what we like.
So sorry about that. But it's nice to have you guys here. You know it. Sze Great to see you guys because that's actually the last time we saw each other was in October when we recorded and we didn't see each other after that? Yes. And we're supposed to be supposed to get drinks.
Yes, we can do that afterwards, I guess.
Wonderful. I would like that. We
don't have that ticket back, actually. So we're going
by train? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, I'm here by car, but I think I can leave it.
You kind of live in the area, though, right?
Ah, yeah. I live in some small, you know, nondescript village outside of the city, but we'll figure it out. I heard there's this thing called uber I take crypto, but maybe we can figure
it. We've got one cup Driver and car co doesn't takes Bitcoin, actually,
really, It's not. It's not like a company. It's like one guy no chooses to.
Yes, you are. You know, my tax, You're free now, or, um and he comes by. He has this huge Bitcoins to Kurt, and you can just pay with
just going. Anything else has been smart guy. Um all right, guys. So we we gave ah a bit of an entrance to what you guys were doing. And what you guys are doing is really cool. But we actually funny since you were here. You were the first guest, I guess, Um, and every time we were talking about defy on any of the other, you know, it shows I brought you guys up a lot. And I was saying, like, you know, lives just Adam and there's on deck, and they're doing this really cool stuff. And it's decentralized exchanges to point. No. And it's ah, dark pools. And it's just like I was talking about you guys and people. I just realized they didn't have a point of reference since we never aired your episode. So if you guys could give, like, a, you know, the elevator pitch of what you guys were doing right now?
Sure. Go for it.
put you on the spot. Yeah. All
right. So for now, we ah, just we're just finishing our own platform lock. Trinity's and we are focusing a lot on interoperability. So our main research on future mine development for right now is on. Ah, fresh for signature. I hope in the scope of this podcast we will get in towards it is in, like, specifically. But really, it's about building bridges between between the oceans. So that's the basic building block for for any and exchange. It's basically a decentralized custody social.
So in layman's terms, one of the key things that I took out of the first episode we did was right. Now we have Dex is we have the centralized exchanges that you have, for example, either Delta right, and it's based purely on either. So you can on Lee Do trading on the R C 20 tokens toe ethereum, right? But you guys are and I'm I know I'm simplifying this, but in a way you can have. Dex is new Decks is where you can have multiple assets being traded on decentralized platform. So it's not. You're not limited. Just the ethereum you can do Ethereum and big bass trading in a decentralized manner.
That's like what usually is missing in all of their current exercise that you can not trade, beat, going hungry and, well, I'm not the maximize, but almost everyone want to trade become
well, yeah, you don't need to be a Maximus. I mean, it's, you know, the highest market cap calling. It's the most tested crypto currency it's been through the most. Just because it's been here for 11 years, right. So it's, uh I think I'm on some days, I'm a maximalist on another. This is one of them. Can you tell? It's I know orange, but it's close enough. No, you like, You know, if if if you don't offer Bitcoin and somebody else is gonna be offering Bitcoin is similar solutions, then yeah, you can have all the verges and io toes in the world, but if you don't have it going them, you're missing out. So where you guys right now, in terms of actually building the platform house.
So we are now breeding courageous who? It means that we are building the protocol which were allowed to transfer tokens between one chain and our other train. Ah, that's ah, that's basically based on something which is called the Central Distance Rights Custody. So you need to have a way to put your money in tow, kind of decentralized bank. So it's very while some other talking Israelis on the other platform, and no single actor has stated. So
you're essentially going You're doing like this decentralized escrow. Yes, you could say stuff like that. It's
very I mean, you could use that to make an escrow on disinvest. It just may be a good
I'm just trying, you know, everything you say. I'm trying to put it in a way that I understand it better.
The center of the
asteroid is a good intuition. Good. Good use case by itself, I think. And Ah,
good. And you guys were doing something cool, cause I know I've been recently. You guys have some big news because I've been I've been essentially molesting Anthony here, uh, byways of Facebook for last, like, two or three months ever since we found out that there was a problem with the first episode. Ah, and you were always, like, No, give me another week. You mean another two weeks? Give me another three weeks. I was like, Come on. Just like dude. What are you waiting for?
It's Adam's fault. Is it Really?
Yeah, but I'm, like, more afraid. One. You were waiting for final confirmation. So you can actually
Yeah, But we also have, you know, like christmas and whatnot. So I think we also have
Christmas, right? Christmas Crypto s. So what's the big news? You know where that what was the reveal that were
so as you know we're building. Basically, an ecosystem index is just one of the the use cases that we're going after. And another one of them is, um for a long time. And now we've been thinking about branching out towards sustainability, um, environment, climate change, and and in the green area in general
because that's a lot of shit that was taking especially proof of work. Course, you know, like, but Bitcoin is consuming the same amount of energy as Iceland if I remember correctly Hunger now? Yes. Now somebody's that suit is gonna be the economic, you know, European area.
Well, the theory is the same way until they upgrade at least no proof of steak. Yes. And well, one of our benefits is that we basically consume very little amounts of energy, right as the as the network. So yeah. So the big reveal is that well, we're gonna work on the carbon markets on especially carbon registry empowered by Al if by the technology. And, uh, yeah, this is this is actually a very, very cool use case. Four Blockchain because you've got all those issues with transparency, with double counting oldest of the boxing Blockchain can solve as a basic technology can be applied to carbon markets and carbon trading.
Interesting. And it's, I don't know if how so. How well known the concept. Carpentry. Nicky's in general. You can give you a bit of a background. So I go into this. I can speak from the luxury and economic perspective because this concert by itself is very, very much seems very similar to what happens in in defy, for example, so and
we'll get into defining. I hope you know, to kind of throw it out there.
So basically, the idea is to provide an incentive ization toe do environmental Italie friendly actions. So, for example, to grow forest in ah, in places where you can grow them cheaply because it doesn't matter where you Grover forest. It helps the Arabs in the same way so howto give this sensitization. Basically, you can on create it open. So whenever someone is, um, don't think of forest and they were ignored, Then the forest is verified by some acquainted very fires, and then they verify. But this compounded this person. This is indeed well, I can cream created, created token oh, are out of focus, which she's kind off proportional to the size of the forest. On this talking Ben can be traded. And then the trick. The twist is vet Ah, a company which is not planting forests. May wants to upset very complex carbon footprint, for example. Uh, you can already do this with some flights. When you are buying fi ticket, you can pay one year or more as an individual as the new individual. Of course, you can pay one your moto officer to accompany credits to offset your carbon footprint. So what's like in media award would happen to this to this $1? You would actually buy the token, which was created by the forest under. So
you're almost like, Ah, the dollar that you're willingly paying. I guess it's willingly. So you're essentially submitting yourself to a voluntary carbon
tax. In a way, in a way, it's a fairly bored here, so it's
Ah, it's Ah, it's a fuse.
The issues that actually, whenever you know, political leaders took about carbon tax. The public is, uh, well, not happy about it.
Well, we don't even need to use the word carbon there whenever anyone uses
the axe for enough. But Justin Trudeau tried that in Canada. There was like a slip. And when he described the, um, carbon situation and he he mistakenly spoke out about carbon tax and messy, yeah, it was quite funny to attraction.
Just came back from Dubai and a friend of mine that lives there told me that Dubai recently, If I'm messing something up, anyone can correct me. But this is what I took away from it that so Dubai had zero taxes on they recently. Like a few years ago, they introduced a 5% tax, and it was like this massive exodus of people like 1 to 1.5 million people just left their cars, left everything and just left, like gone 5% tax like, which is nothing. You know, like what we have, like 19. So it's Excuse me, it's ridiculous, but that's that's kind of interesting. Taxes. They're funny.
funny. So let's avoid. Just word is voluntary action, which you can make two things together.
But there is also ah, you know, a compliance and obligatory site to this. So, um, one of the major Well, the main example of it is the European trading scheme indeed, Yes, Poland isn't in most of the U country's air in it. And essentially, this is whenever you place a limit off how much greenhouse gases a company can produce. Right? And there was last year, I think, December, November, something like that. There was a good example between Fiat and Tesla when Fiat both two billion worth of carbon credits from Tesla to meet their, you know, greenhouse gas emission standards. So this would be the compliance market and voluntary market. I think, um, is also the one that can be treated as a B to C market. So, Adam, you and myself, we can just make, um, you know, uh, conscious the decisions whenever we go go shopping or are Well,
you guys have your hand in a lot of different pies right now.
We are trying to do good, basically boxing for good, launching for goon.
So no, When moon when Lambo
does the decks part.
So is there like a timeline for the decks? By the way, out of curiosity,
So we are like, we are not gonna drove FedExed index less like out of nowhere. We are building bridges first on the next step on our timeline is that we have our own protocol for Ah, for Churchill. See, Venture, which is basically the the backbone of this custody I'll be talking about so visiting, I think we're gonna release the paper on that sweep in two months. Will
you build the decks? Are you kind of gonna build like you're gonna create the technology and you're gonna be like, Hey, if anybody wants to do this, you know, like
and earn lots of money you can, though our cold three. Of course you have it. So we were, you
know, But you know what? Why I'm asking is because, like Dex is, it's such a hot topic because of ah, let's call it what it is. There's a regulatory clusterfuck when it comes to Dex is like the ether Delta CEO. He was like, what, Half a year ago, he was detained in the U. S.
So Right, um, I would take us the back and basically our process for for all if and four decks will be the same. So we start with scientific research, which I know very little about, but hands Adam and Hiss Team Onda we publish a paper then we try our best to get it pure reviewed, which is what happened to all of zero and with common, which is our current name for the decks. I think we're just going to repeat the process. So once you have that, you know the research done and approved in review, then we commence the development. But with Dex, it's gonna be a massive project. And we're not gonna be able to, you know, way even. Don't want to do it ourselves because doesn't make any sense.
To be honest, it's a large scale project, definitely. But you do want to be part of creating the techs like you're like. So probably with an investor or some additional team or
mobile, most likely a butt like the entire idea of defy, you know, whenever we speak about open and transparent finances, this is, um,
let's start. Let's talk defy, give us the background on defy, so defy decentralized finance. Yes, why is it cool? Why should people care what it's like? The hot subject in crypto and Blockchain? For the last I would say 2020 is a year of defying 2019 was kind of like building up to defy because not that many people were talking about it. People heard of it, but it wasn't as big as I think 2020 is going to be, You know, everyone's gonna be screaming, defy.
I would say that in 2020 But if I will be steering very preliminary stage, I mean, we're
still further ahead than the S steel market,
and I would say okay, but probably during this talk will get into the attacks, which happened a few days ago on this is like the best of the best example of why this is still experimental face and why we still don't know exactly exactly how it's gonna look like when it's gonna be all right for your party. Sure,
but let's first, let's give the background and defy exactly so defied the centralized finance give a bit of a background for the listeners
open, transparent, inclusive and safe. Once it's done, it's like an interest infancy. So, uh, whenever we talk about, um, you know, defy being the, uh not secure version off centralized finance or or finance in general, I think it's way too early to tell because it's like saying that, um, Internet is is a bad idea because of spam email.
Yeah, or in 1996 Saying, Well, I can't stream fork a video on my modem,
for example. Yeah, yeah,
eso defy we're taking. Basically, it's we're bridging the gap that we had with traditional finance with centralized finance, and we're putting it on block change. We're doing things in a decentralized manner, hopefully making it a bit more inclusive than the archaic system that we're trying to grow out of
so you can say even stronger. But well, making any other finals we've decentralized assets doesn't make any sense. I mean, you lose the whole concept of decentralization. What? Why would you have the centralized disintegrates acid at the first place? If you would like to trade with in the centuries money?
That's a very good point. That's a very good point. And that's why I think we're going to see ah, a lot of consultation in terms off centralized exchanges, whether they're trading securities or commodities or tokens that are. You know, we don't really know what they are because we don't have the regulatory framework to decide what they are, But it's a good point, you know, you have just January 3rd. You have the ah, crap. What's what's it called? It was the keys, not your coin. It was Ah, Big Queen Maximalist. They had this. Ah,
I've been hearing that for years. Yeah, but January
third is this day. I forget what it's called, but it's basically you. Everyone that has Bitcoin. It's this global movement where you take all of your Bitcoin onto a wallet for January 3rd that you control. So there's no Yeah, it's just like this, you know, move
a kind ownership day. Yeah, it's
like it's like, yeah, it's something like that. It's like it's like private key ownership that it's something along those lines. OK, yeah. So it's Ah, there's like, Mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm. There's this formula that was supposed to put under your Twitter handle, and it's like the emoji for key, like our movement, like like a narrow and then the Bitcoin symbol. It's like this whole thing. So it's actually really interesting because it za good point. We have decentralized assets where the majority of people are keeping them on exchanges on a lot of them are really not secure exchanges, right
and even the ones we do. Keep them over on Wallace. Whenever we want to do anything with them, they need to goto either tenderness exchange or some other yes
or sketchy back alley. Please take my Bitcoin
Certain Tony case there is a single point of failure.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Even in Dolly. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. So, um, we're gonna talk about defy and what's been going on on the defy market, but kind of talking about Oh, let's call it the T m Z version of defy, because there's been a lot of shit going on and the interwebs about defy about people that have been in crypto for awhile and them talking shit about defy. So you guys want to start with Iota? You want to start with Charlie Lee? What do you guys want to d'oh
Mmm. Charlie it with you. So way. Deeper topic for me, eh? So I think it's much pressure before a discussion.
Let's start with Charlie. All right, guys. So, Charlie, Charlie Lee is the creator of light coin. And if you know Big Corn, you should know, like coin. So, like, coin, I think there ah, on unofficial motto was that They're the silver toe Bitcoins gold, right? Not a fan of, like going. I like Charlie. I met him a few times. I think he's great, but I'm not the biggest fan of light coin. Just cause I don't really see the I don't see the use case, right? Like it's another payment coin. Um, And if you have Bitcoins, you need like, home. Be honest.
You ever get over being must maximize again?
Okay, how about this s o? I can't be maximalist IQ If I say do I need, like, coin of five Nano? All right, So, um, I'm right now. I'm on block, you know me and the header is like coins. Charlie Lee casts doubt on the theory and based defy after recent attack. Attack is in quotation marks. So we have. Ah, it starts with a coin based tweet on the corn based tweet action says D fire decentralized finance is an essential part of unopened financial system. Defied tools are censorship resistant, unbiased, programmable and available to anyone with a smart form smartphone. For this hackathon, we're focusing on bringing defied the world. So I think this coin basically kind of started everything. Uh This was January 10th 2019. And then some bad stuff happens in the world of defy. And I'm gonna take Adam's. Adam's gonna take this in a second. I'm just gonna read the Charlie Lee Tweet. So some shit went down in the world of defied. There was a hack. There was some flash loans. Baba, Blah. We'll get into it. But Charlie Lee's response was, This is why I don't believe in defy. It's the worst of both worlds. Most defy can be shut down by a centralized party. So it's just decentralization theater. And yet no one can undo a hack or exploit unless we add more centralization. So how is this better than what we have now, Adam? Currently, it's not master. Uh, Why was Charlie what's his beef? What happened in the world of if I pissed him off so much?
Okay, so I really like a lot of people are using for a talk and tucker movement in there. That everyone when you when you google flash along the first thinking which you will get its attack Attack cock. Ah, I'm not
sure person just gamed the system. Essentially, it wasn't
that became the person, trade it in a very smart way on and earn some money by $60,000 during one of attacks, and the other I think it was even more. It was 600 but ah, I think it's much more, and this I won't be interests them on DA this person game. This isn't by trading by putting orders on duh,
essentially shorted. They took out a loan by collateral izing ethereum and shorting teeth Essentially right.
The problem was very busy X, which offered farting because so you could short Bitcoin and then influence the price of Bitcoin and then win. Of course, a lot of money on the short and you could do that in the single for election. So that's Ah, absolutely going, drinking. I mean, this this financial instrument does not doesn't make any sense in the reward. I mean short, which you can execute within one transaction you put in there. That's that's just really, really badly designed financial instrument. And, well, if you put Bentleys and financial instrument on the market, we're going out this money most probably right. Someone is well, so so, like the hawk eye for me. The analogy is like, if let's say you want to sell your car on eBay and like you, miss clicked and you put the price for $10. And actually, I'm buying this car. Yeah. So, you know,
there's just no going my hunger, my hunger Did I talk to you? It's like the mean hacker. Yeah. Uh, yeah, that's what my parents asked me to restart the router. Right? Hacker math's, like, more or less something like that. Yeah, Just the problem is that if you Ah, in the traditional world, if you put out your car for $10 somebody calls you and says like, Hey, man, I want to buy this car for $10 You like Oh, shit, my bad. It's not $10. It's $15,000. Depends on a
platform. Its policy or exactly that's what I'm getting exactly. You know, we can buy this. There's no going back. There is no going back. Exactly. So it's
like sending your you know, you have 10 big going. You mess up, you're out the address and you send, you know, not the three eggs, E one but 23 eggs even more, and it's it's gone you're not gonna cock contact any bank and say like, Hey, guys, I messed up the transaction right? And that's one of the main ah issues people have with crypto because no one's holding their hand. No one is. No one has their back. Because even if you do, ah, if you miss of a bank transaction like there's always a chance that, you know your bank can revert something and help you out, right?
Sure. Various. Vis a vis tradeoff between of safety in the way that you can get back and ultimate ization, you cannot have ultimate ization. We've Arab with too much aerobics
that's very, very well put.
And automatic station is like, Maybe it's not all the defies about, but it's a lot of what a general elections are about. It's programmable money, which, where you can help the matter some actions. So, yes, it comes at the cost, and the cost is that sometimes there is no going back.
Yeah, I mean, it is otherwise, we're just gonna have, you know, like the last 100 years, we're gonna have tellers in the bank and doing everything by hand and, like, that's not that's not the point. That's not where everything is going right. Obviously, there's going to be some growing pains. Like the flash crash back the hacker man showed, but likes a world. Where do we go from here? Like it's Ah, Is this an issue? And let's say I'm going to see issue in quotation marks that's going to be persistent in the defy world, Or is this something that is easily fixable on by your professional opinion? Since you guys are the defy guys,
I think the problem is very deep, actually is very deep rooted in a tube structure. So I made up like a metaphor for four bits, actually. So imagine that you're trading on the normal market and you have a magical bottom. And whenever you click about his button, all the world stops and you can execute s manage traitors you want. And like no one contract, you buy something. Then you influenced some prize when you said something. Before some think you buy something memorial on destroyed position and you let me get yourself that when you cook the battle and everything is okay and what's even more if at the end, you see that you actually lost your money. You can er wind through the game. So that's how it four city Jeriome And now imagine everyone has their bottom so off course the like. It's a very different game than of a normal market. And ah, I don't think we actually understand this game right now. We are like people are just coping of financial instruments, which might sense on the normal Marcus and which are popular on the normal market. So that's of course, the first full well, yeah. So it was good Varis on my bees when I got here on Dhe. See us for something. That's our point of reference, right? Like like home. You're going to
be the only one that's
that's some of the issues with Bitcoin is whenever we, uh I think injury is Aunt Annapolis said this That, like one of the worst fuck ups, is calling, uh, big coin like places where you store your Bitcoin keys, calling them wallets because it's of the because of our point of reference. Andi, I think he was a proponent, calling them key chains or something along those lines because it's like that's more how they work. And like, if we if our point of reference is, you know, traditional paper money and then translating all of that nomenclature onto, you know, crypto like it's creates problems because now when you're you know, so you have the swallowed but not a wallet is you have your keys thinkI and you know it's like you consent.
But at the same time, we took a little Emma's adoption. And when you tell people that they don't have wallahs anymore, they have key chain.
Jeez. Oh, well, I mean, mass adoption is That's one of the hot topics we discussed you for everyone. Everyone has a different.
I would say that naming conventions. He's not their own look. I mean, let's call it where in that? I
mean, usability is the roadblock, like they call it, call it. You know, you can have a name for whatever It doesn't really matter. People are gonna get used to calling something, you know, A B, C or X y z. It doesn't matter, but just gonna interface the u x d u I east of use like those air the roadblock.
I think that whenever Blockchain iss as a word is no longer throwing around That's where we're gonna have miss adoption, you know?
Yeah. Like once we start calling things money on our Bitcoin Blockchain crypto, Yes, and fiat. Like like no one was like before Krypton. No one was like saying Fiat. Yeah, I think that's true. I learned this world after learning beat kind. Exactly, because that's how I like like no one wants it. Yeah, because now you have ya. Because everything was fiat if you didn't have, like, some diamond or something, and then you call the diamond
is lonely, you know was I don't know, maybe you've got electronic cigarettes and analog cigarettes. A probably had
a lock. Cigarettes. That sounds like a hipster thing
I like on a lark. Cigarettes with With With a moustache.
Yeah, exactly. The hipster twirl so defied The roadblock is right now. This problem, as you said, isn't really flexible.
Uh, I'm not sure about this problem. I That's not what I didn't say that we have a problem which is unfixable. I'm saying that this is a very different game from the games we used to play before on normal markets.
Do you? And that this will reverberate for the next few years, and we're going to see many more visible things. Attacks,
attacks, perhaps exploits that's expected. It wasn't on. Uh, yeah, I think people will be more wary when putting new financial instruments of the market on DA. That's definitely
business is essentially like, like, not too overly simplify it. But this this this happened something similar unless called an exploit on centralized exchanges in dealing with traditional cryptocurrencies where you had someone just messed up nothing else. They just messed up and they sold a big coin for $10 or $100 just because they messed up their zeroes or decimal points. Right? And then, you know, Adam comes along like, Oh, by right, because if it's peer to peer than you know, some issues will arise. So this is essentially something somewhere. It's just
all so I would like to point out with gaming the system, it's like it's not specific to block chance. I mean, no way gaming,
you know, the 2008 financial crisis, for example, something else in the world.
Any any crisis ending? Yeah, it's normal. Find it any market. Yeah, to be honest. So it's love.
It's what Marcus Pole markets have some problems. It's normal.
Charlie Lee, are you listening? Markets have issues. This is normal.
I thought about attacks, but like you could see this as a elaborated arbiters like a trading but could actually perform this attack like it's not what happened. Most probably. I mean, there are no such boats yet, but elaborated Trading boat could play such and such a direction transaction. So would you. Who is Hacker Van? And if it's just how the game works?
So what do you What do you think about? Is this this stuck out in my mind? Ah, this part most defy, can be shut down by centralized party. So its decentralization theater. But it's
actually finally right. So I think that what Charlie means and is that, you know, can truly decentralized finance actually happen. Is that possible Send and 5 10 years literally central
finance between because we can have this argument about Bitcoin Is Bitcoin truly decentralize? 80% of the hasher. It is from sure problem.
And we can argue whether something can be, you know, decentralized fully, partially or well. Does that even mean
by Inari? I mean, it's not like various things which are decentralized. Everything's we are not very You're gonna be decentralized up to some degree Bitcoins much more distant horizon normal bunk on da Like I think. Right now, most people like any finance which happens on a tea room is defied, basically, like should I
be called semi centralized on
everything could be called semi centralized. I don't know.
Centralize your 0.5. Um so So what do you what do you make of this point of? They're being a single point of failure that centralized. And if I
know it's it's not vey defy. Mean dd five decentralized.
So it's something If I'm understanding you correctly, it's something that just takes time, right? Because, like bickering wasn't decentralized. If you have two nodes running and you know circuit 2009 then it's very difficult to call it a centralized system, right?
We're not very it. I mean, most of those things which people wants to do in the finance world are very complex processes with many, many steps. So we are decentralizing one step after another, and as long as various at least one central I step there will be possibility of just shutting it down so, like eventually, I believe we're gonna decentralize all on. There will be no guy who can. You are
I yes, issues Iota attack
coordinator attack. That's not a good thing to have a coordinator
and not an exploit. Yes. So no quotation marks. There was an actual attack. Iota got shut down. No, no Iota, My OTA
correct on this is one of such situation. So, uh, first of all, I never claimed to be fully disinterest. That was public knowledge that they are currently on the stage where they need to coordinator
and they were honest from the start.
Yes, it's It's a lot more about
this coordinator. So what is a coordinator like, What's what's up with that? Corny,
it's a single point. The fighter is the one server owned by the foundations, I suppose, and ah, it's very dating all transactions on there, not detained on Burt Tunggal. Um, all the transactions were essentially century very And
so exactly what Charlie Lee has issue with,
Uh yes, and I don't have any issue of it. It's a normal with her face and ah, sometimes it's easier to beat some things with such face where you can actually shutting down one. They go broke, and that's exactly what happened. S over was a big plan for very still picked on, which is called Core. Decides to kill the coordinator and make it for you some fries and somewhere along the line I know. Sure, I don't think it's It's public right now whether this attack waas connected toe Cordless I project or not. So recently someone attacked. Um, I think the exploit was on iota words. So sometimes someone used this exploit and iota foundation decided to shut the hole and four down.
But there's not a lot of information coming out of Iota. What's going on right now? And this it's been it's been Ah Oh,
I think I agree. Very, very established. Page started was that they'd come living or something like that. And daily or even more often, baby, they publish on new info off course. I mean, there are
no thrill. Don't know exactly what happened is
maybe my you know, I'm not sure whether we know or not, but I'm sure they're gonna share it because it's like we would do that. If that were to happen,
Way would do that. But you know, it's I don't know. I think we're expecting a bit too much.
What these? What they already short is that most probably. Or maybe it's already certain. But issue was with the Trinity wall. It could stay official word on DA there working as hard as we can to fix it, I suppose, And
we talked about this before we started recording. And I want to touch upon this point is that there's so much shit in the crypt of community. And I think that what happened with Iota is something somewhere that happened with a lot of different projects on my issue is that a lot of the time people that are holders of a certain crypto, they tend to forget or sweep something under the rug. You know, like there's 51% attacks, right? It's like it doesn't matter. It's okay. It's like That's like if you have your own chain of 51% attack is like one of the most like, horrible things that can happen to your own crypto or two to your own Blockchain. And it's like E T. C. How to 51% of knock vert coin had a 51% attack, Verge had a 51% attacked.
It's not her fault, in no examples is always default. I mean, it's not does not mean that where Ted was was part of the others. It just means that some of it was not popular enough to mind and someone with enough power. Exactly. I thought
it shows that one bad player can really takeover
yes, and one, but there can take over any small train s. Oh, I don't think that people should Bashevis this
product. Do you think that it shows that maybe there just isn't really room for thes smaller market cap When I say market cup, I mean, you know, I'm not talking about, like obviously I'm translating it. Thio. I don't mean it's just the market cap, but it's, you know, maybe some stuff outside of the top 50. So
I think there are highly endangered to two things at play here. And 1st 1 as I wouldn't, you know, Bosch the communities for backing their project after some something went wrong because this is actually good for the community that they keep supporting it.
Yes and no, I would say on Lee because, um I'm okay with you still being a fan or holder or whatever of a certain project. But you can't disregard would happen. Sure, you know,
But being aware of it,
if you're suffering a humorous 51% attacks and your focus isn't what can we do to improve this? What can we like? Should we maybe, ah, support the developers? Maur set up another death fund right now. And if you're on Lee thing is no, no, no, it doesn't matter to the moon when Lambo, which is the case and a lot of these projects,
action is the case. So you've got an engaged community that can actually, you know, help you to get where you're going. And if you make a mistake, a mistake along the way, that's that's fine. Everybody makes those 51% is kind of different because I can kind of, you know, what's all that stuff about, but going to your next thing, which is Is there a room for coins outside of the top 50? So I think this goes back to whether looking, you know, 5 10 years ahead, we're gonna have to or free measure platforms on the market? Or is there room for highly specialized block chains for an industry, a use case and so on? So far, it
was like right now it's, uh, a lot more secure tohave a token on the Ethereum platform rather than have a small flock chain like a vert coin. Or
indeed, it's very hard to add, uh, some new new features. I only you're you're
I mean, it's, you know, whenever So in the tech world, whether you like if you have your own product right, you're creating your own product on every time that the Maur third party solutions you need to rely on, the bigger the chance that something can, you know, mess up. Like if you're using outside servers, for example, then you know you're obviously a bit more limited than if you self hosted everything I think would be the analogy there. But one thing I want to quit quickly. Ah, just throw in Here is something that I really like. Speaking of communities, uh, what I recently I see a trend on the Reddit community and Nano is whenever someone starts like talking price prediction, they get down voted, which is one of the few communities I see on Reddit where because obviously, like, what do you think is gonna be? I think's because gonna be $250,000 you know, vote, vote. And someone said like, Yeah, some guy said, Yeah, I think it's gonna be something between five and 20 and everyone just like down voted thumb. I think it was amazing. I think it shows that, you know, there's some communities out there that they're not just in it for, you know, let's talk Price. You know, like all let's just talk speculation. And maybe one day we're gonna be millionaires. Sure, because that doesn't lead to anything, right?
Like just cause you got you on one hand, you've got, you know, trading. And on the other hand, you've got the infrastructure and, you know, the the longer we're in, the clear the division becomes, so we're on the I think we're more on the infrastructure site with the project.
That's good. That's good, because the more projects like this get created, and the less we talk about, just, you know, the speculative every aspect of crypto the better. Because ah, that's one of the issues we had in 2017 without last bubble is it's There's just so much speculation going on. You know,
every market suffers from this
off course. It's just so much faster in crypto that I see a lot of people saying, You know, like, Oh, it's just a bubble cycle after a bubble cycle, right? Yeah, but I mean, that's not my opinion. That's just you know what, people from the outside looking in or saying Sure. Speaking of bubble cycles, I have a feeling I CEOs are making a comeback.
Really? Yeah. So lost they heard, is that I pose air making their way into into the crypt A world.
Oh, I'll believe it when I see it. I think I peels in the crypt. The world is gonna be the same s Dios. I think it's still a long ways away. Everything You know, what in crypto everything that hope happens organically, where we don't have time to sit down and discuss it encrypted. It just happens, right? And that was my first issue with Estos Everyone was talking about STDs and no one was really doing es Dios and those 2017 because it was right about the hype of the I C e o Mobile and everyone's like, you know, what's next thing is gonna be awesome B s t o and then 2018 like, Yeah, it's the euro s t o on the 2019. Like this is gonna be There s Iose as well, but they never took off his well. And that's another thing is everyone was talking like, you know what I think I owe? They're going to be a big thing, but I was never really took off.
It's just another form of icy. Oh, really? With a central ice party
and with ah decreased lack and transparency.
Yes, but you know, I c e o as a method of raising capital. This is just basically curled hunting.
So it works. It's cool. You just need a degree at bit more regulation and transparency on this, and there's nothing wrong with it.
And you have, ah, jurisdictions like Malta, Gibraltar, that are on the forefront of actually trying to do something. And I suppose,
Yeah, well, since the beginning, I guess
e thought something changed in Switzerland recently. Maybe I'm wrong, but no, like the more the more jurisdictions we have like that, the better. I know. One of the chairman of the SEC recently said, uh, maybe I I might be butchering this, but they said something along the lines of the proposed. It's nothing is sending someone. They just propose something that, ah, give all of these, uh, crowdfunding projects like like I CEOs give them, like this three year leniency period where they can, um, almost self regulate to the whole. You know how we test security issue so you can raise capital. And if you have any issues internally, you can kind of, you know, you have three years of a running start get regulated on bike. I think that would be huge of the U. S. Is saying that you know the SEC, which is by far the most stringent, Ah, regulatory body that you know, you see that cc like going after everyone right from yours, this project so
But I think you know, the entire industry learned that you cannot get there by working against the regulators, and everybody else is working with them on a solution that works for everybody else. And it's safe for every participant. So that's that's what changed over the last three years. They just work a bit slowly. Sure writers, you know, that's not gonna change
for you. And that's that's why I think I see. Ls there coming back is because we see what's going on on the market, and we can just check right now. Big coin, $10,150. You have a hearing for 280. And of the moment we have $500 Eve, I think it's gonna be, you know, where we're just gonna rewind back to 2017 like I really believe, because it's just there's gonna be too much hype. There's just just gonna be too much money to be
made e differently on during this last boron and and last last have bubble for, like, the icy Oh, hype. Let's tow a lot off really bad products, mo absolutely absurdly funded.
Well, like they were essentially glorified white papers with no tech. Yeah, you put out a white paper and you're like and I want a 1,000,005 100,000 us delight. It's like, All right, cool. Here
depend a logo that I bought for five backs on fiver fiver. Yes.
Oh, actually, after a drop burst. Like there was this period after after, If a bubble where I see us, we're still pretty popular. But there was, like, four times less of them, and most of them actually made some sense.
Yeah. I mean, if the project is good, I know of Ah, really good. I seo in mid 2019 that raised $18 million through Malta and, you know, e commerce supply chain stuff like that in the cannabis business, you know? Is it possible? Yeah, it's possible if your shit is good, but if you're just another e r C 20 token, that's just like, uh So we're we're a payment solution. Like you're not thinking like you want to be, but you're not like, Come on. You know how many like landing pages on white papers? I see that gets sent to me and coin deal, and they're like, Yeah, we're here, See? 20. But we're better than Bitcoin. I know. Like how How How? How does your mind work? Tell me. Tell me, why are you better than big coin? Because your marketing department told you you are. Come on.
It's the better shade of orange.
Yeah, it's Ah Bitcoin cash till this way the logo Bitcoin filled this way and we're fully, you know, like just force on More Aligned. Yeah, Arby's horizontal and it's blue. I give me a fucking break. Jesus Christ, it's just there's so much possible. Yeah, but the bullshit will come back whenever there's, like strong market sentiment. Like I think a lot of the bullshit will come back. And the only reason So I have I have a bit of a mixed bag of emotions here is because I think there's a lot of awesome projects that, um they didn't do a nice e o because they saw the market, you know, go down in 2018 2019 and they could have raised money. But maybe you would just be a lot more difficult in the current, uh, market climate. And I think I'm actually kind of excited. If I see those comebacks. I think there's gonna be a lot of amazing projects that will be able to capitalize on this. But of course, as you say
he wants, which are already working for last two years. Exactly. Exactly exactly. I really hope Hope for it. Yeah,
and that. But then, of course, once we're going to be like right at the height of the hype cycle, then we're going to get all the bullshit they were going to get. The Trans
people have done this content. Miss Marker.
Oh, no, no, of course not.
No, but it's a no persons you farted for, like as any other. You know, that was gonna happen. And you do it anyway, to some extent, expand on that, right? So the hype cycle for a eye for Blockchain, for training and whenever you take a look a gardener's, uh, now laws, Yes, it's always the same. The same line, right? And usually for every industry is very similar. And people do it and do it and do it over and over again. Just the industry that is different and not the actual hype cycle.
So you don't think it's gonna be I suppose you think it's gonna be
I've got no radio, really. I just I just don't bet on that and, you know, keep doing our work.
That's that's good. I mean, no, like, of course, like I don't mean by no means am I saying that? Oh, I see those air coming back. So everyone here, let's do four i CEOs each write like that. That's not what I mean. But I do think that if the project is good and they have good fundamentals and it's not like what we talked about outside that it's not two guys working out of a garage writing a white paper and they don't even have an M v. P. Right then it's, you know, I'm talking about real come companies trying to token eyes something specific or adding, Ah, token,
I think, Well, you revving you
like I would hope that if I seals come back, they're gonna come back in the form where it's going to be big players, or maybe even okay, not even the players. But it's gonna be established companies trying to supplement their activities through token ization or our
fund, their research departments, innovation labs and and so on, so forth. So okay, so if you're an established company and you want a launch in R and D division, right, you can get funding for that separately through an I c E o. And that would be the proper way off achieving.
But I would love to see that. Yeah, like, I think that would be amazing. But, you know, it's going to probably end up being scam. Coin 2000 please. Bye for $1 million. All right, guys, do we have anything else we want to talk about? He talked about Iota. We talked about Charlie. You got some tweets?
I mean, I can dig him up.
Yeah, Let's get some
fresh. Good idea.
Flash loans, flash, long flesh.
You know what I've been messing around with recently? Speaking of loans, I've been testing out the Celsius up. Okay, Yeah, I just wanted to see how it works. But because, of course, uh, it's essentially what we talked about is you deposit crypto and you earn interest, But it's essentially your deposit crypto, and your crypto is being lent essentially to funds who want a short crypto. Okay, so it's like the reason I know it's not a scam is because it doesn't pay that much. It would pay too much. I would be very, very worried. I think I've made around $15 in the past two months, which is well on the online. It 2% unlike two and 1/2 $1000 deposit.
Okay, and doesn't pay much?
No, no, it's, you know, it's like I'm just messing around with it. Never really interesting. I like how their loyalty program is broken down, its with their own internal token with the Celsius token, and it's pretty cool. You have, like, it's done on a ratio basis, so you have, like less than 5% of your ratio of your coins. You hold to the Celsius token. Then you get this much, you know, interest and then over 10% ratio of Celsius tokens to the other coins. It's like this much, and it's like up to 20. So it's I mean, it's interesting. Fresh loans, flash flash flash, no flesh loans,
no lights, no legal. I think you know, flesh, lungs, flashlights are legal.
I think it's like a synonym for slavery. Flesh loans,
bodily body leaving. All right,
all right, let's let's let's set it up.
So form a business like the whole new new idea of it is, it creates some a lot of new opportunities. So, uh, get people back, okay, So flash along. The idea is that without much off your own capital, you can rent as much money as you want. Basically like you can margin lending you can. You can then $2 million. What actually happened during this attack? So so But it's not because off,
but you need some collateral,
but a forever real. And I think in this case it could go without water. And I think is that you are running $2 million then you are doing some transactions and invest transaction of a sequence you need to give it back. And it relates to this story with the bottom. So basically, you do all these things within one transaction, So either all of those things are executed or none of it.
So it's atomic. Either it happens all the wants or doesn't happen at all.
Yes. So you like get your $2 million for one second on if you do something good with it, meaning that you end up with at least tow to give it back on. Ben
was executed. I just imagined the scenario where you have $2 million for one second. Yeah,
that's exactly what it is. Exactly what happens. You need to have a very, very well for planning. What can you do with two million
dollars is not one second using this button at all. So
don't look at me. I'm not gonna use it as well.
I don't know what kind of sketchy, you know, you could do a lot with $2 million in one second.
Everyone can do a lot of us a $1,000,000 in one second.
I don't know about that.
You didn't buy a car?
Me now Big, right? All right. What you got on the magic iPod?
Well, the magic I buy So we were basically just, you know, without him, we were looking at the discussion associated with the Charlie Need tweet. And it's ah, your usual thing. You've got one guy saying that, um fulcrum and this entire idea is quote. At least it's not as useless as light coin and quote. Oh, shit. Which I don't agree with. But
I used to have some Like when I don't anymore.
I still have a bit of light kind.
That's where we met. And
that's how we met. Actually,
you're You met in a back alley. Whose son that's selling. You like going
on the party. And he was buying life going on his cell phone. Yes, he
was trying to impress all the girls like, Yeah, I'm in crypto. I'm using my corn based after Boston black coin. And that's how you met Adam. So No, you didn't pick up any girls?
No, no, no, no. Through life. You
don't agree with that like, but I actually agree to some extent, like okay, I'm not saying like queen is useless because it's a huge market cap coin. Right. But, like, okay, if anyone wants to convince me, like you can please write me tweet me. But like, I I don't see the use for light coin in the long run. I don't If everything that's planned for every Bitcoin upgrade goes through, that's planned, then you don't really need it or you have you have zero Fi instant transaction. Ah, you know, alternatives. Like like again, I'll say, like, Nano that, you know, it's not just like it's like coin this copy pasta copy pasta company coins from from big corn with like, let's just, you know, it's like that mean that hey, uh, can I can I can I can copy your homework? Yeah, just, you know, change it a bit so the teacher doesn't know. And that's what, like going, is it? Copy that Coins homework and just change the block. Time changed the total supply and done.
I think they change a crushing functions. Well, yeah. OK, so it's another very soon something ideology behind It's over six by six Are not that easy to contact the beautiful for right gun, but imaginary. I agree ver they are running for exactly the same use case. Yes, exactly
by, uh, you know, 20 times smaller market cap in.
There's a lot of potential bashing light going in here.
I am not surprised. Read somewhere. Read some more. I
want to hear it. No, because it's gonna be taken out of context. No, I'm kidding. I watch CNN have you arse Fox News. Oh, hell, yeah. Uh,
it's better. And you can't find better entertainment than Fox News. I'm seriously funny. Things like like dude, John Oliver has a show on for 67 years and, like, 50% of it is like fox news clips. Yeah, you know, it's it's great entertainment. You just add some commentary and a British guy and you have a hit show.
Exactly. Yeah, gets. Get some tweets, All right. Who's looked for them? We're so prepared. Were so pretty yourself again, Quote. It's more useful down your useless light coin end quote.
Did anyone say actually something constructive? Or is
it small? There is a quote from a must. Really you should be failing. Does the quote from Mulan Musk
He doesn't have a lot of time for elaborate responses.
So mostly, you know, mostly it's about defy being in early stage, which it is, which it is, which we talked about. Mostly, it's about light clean and not having the proper use case for that, Um,
I remember. Ah, what comes to mind I propose of light coin is there was there's this story of Ah, Jeremy Gardner. So Jeremy, he's the creator of Augur, and he has some like these keys he's been in, you know, big coin for a long time. Like since the beginning. Essentially, he's done a lot of cool stuff. He's a very, very positive figure in the in the crypt of community, and he has this anecdote off being at a pretty early Bitcoin meet up. I think it was at M i t. And it just so ended up that Jeremy and Charlie Lee were both at the urinal at the same time. And, you know, I think they both had, like, a few beers. And this is post like coin Charlie Right on. You know, they've had, like, two or three beers on Jeremy. Jeremy's very direct and he said, like Charlie, like, I gotta ask you like Well, fuck us up If I coin And his response was something along the lines of like, I don't know, dude, I don't know which, even if half of it is true, but it's
so you know, it's on. The other thing is, you know, Charlie selling all of his life. That's a pretty big you know, factor. Like what was the 2018? So it's hard. It's hard to take things like that, he says seriously, since his calling card you know, his magnum opus is is like coin. That's his crypto creation, you know, And he's not everything that he says right now is gonna be Look that through the context of light coin and like so him coming out against defy, which is, as you mentioned, it's early stage. But the potential is
huge kind of thing only. And that only really think about that one. Was that it was really I mean, it started already.
Yeah, that's what Our first mover advantage. Essentially, you have big coin. And then you had Ah, you had some other. You have, like master coin. I remember Masako. Yeah, like if I'm correct, like Master Corn was like the first I c e o. If I remember correctly, was, like 20 12. Maybe we can look that up later. Somebody was like, Yeah, Pru pre ether. And you have, like, coin since 1 2012 2014 2014 I'm 20 I 2014. So, you know, like, how many projects did you have? Like, look at coin market cap from 67 years ago. Look how many projects there were you had made, like made safe, which was a top 10 project
back then, Technologically might say it is very interesting. It
it is, you
know? So the safe networking,
the name I think they are changing to save network, but made safe was like,
Oh, man, I can tell your worst name. Are you ready for this Groosalugg coin? Kruzel coins. It's What is this? It's, uh, it's also it's like a payment thing. They have their own Blockchain, and it's Ah, the whole thing was like subatomic fees. Okay, on dumb it. If I remember correctly, it has to do with the fact that Groosalugg, or probably if someone has a better German or Austrian accent so crucial, is like it's the word for hash. So it's essentially hash coin. Okay, but yeah, gruesome corn. Not like really interesting project one of the worst names in the game,
but serious like a serious. And the anything chairman
is what? Where did the worst names? And Kirk, though
What are the words? Names on Krypton.
I don't like the names which have been going inside like BTK. Uncalled for example.
Also, although all the forks
Yeah, it's like Bitcoin cash. Wait, I don't like the name.
There's like so many. Like Like that's another thing about adult adoption is like, Okay, big coin like coin. Great name, by the way. Like like going. It's a good name, but like Ethereum, you have. You know, we have these topped your projects, and then you have, as I mentioned, crucial car in Harvard coin like What the fuck is avert vert vert v e r t.
Have you been skating in your life?
I have. But I don't think that's you know, uh, I don't think that has anything to do with what they're trying to do,
but they could run good like
2000 products on the market. When, like you want to come up with a name which is not yet used, you need to be creative.
So, like way put in green on Corn Mike Market Cup because we were wondering how many green card coins are there probably wouldn't budge. And you've got green power green coin green, gold, green, green Call something
gold. You know that. You know, like you know, that's account of this project. You know, that's a count
of But like, you know, naming is definitely no point of coin is off. Gruesome coin.
More other loyalty points. What more the loyalty points with Cyber Miles
Moya Diaper cider Winner. We have a
winner hp be high performance Blockchain like, you know, that's just like a bunch of marketing people sitting down in the room and then go
on the block. This performance, it's not marketing people take people
not. Dude, this is, like, really bad. Like five or marketing people
service, quantum things, Quantity going post. Want to
keep our host Quantum matrix? Aye, aye, network. All right, well, this is like a deep diver. Could probably think this for hours. I just got, like, so interested in these names.
We power sounds actually, like we work spin
off. Its Not like we
chat or we chop.
Yeah, we chat. All right. I think we're gonna wrap this up. I think we expect, like, we exploited everything to the to the T. We're gonna leave. We're gonna leave Charlie alone. I think he's gonna get a lot of shit. For what he said. I think he already feels bad for
Charlie. Hey, you still gotta respect the guy?
Oh, no. Absolutely. And, um, I respect him, but I did. Another side note is I find it kind of weird. You guys saw the Warren buffet dinner with Justin son right from wrong,
But it didn't happen. No, it did it Really Okay
for those pictures under his Charlie, Like standing to the side like, Hey, Mom, it's like I don't know what he was doing. there. It's like, Yes. So I have this project was called like coin, but I don't have any because I sold it all. But maybe you would want to buy. Yeah, I know, but it happened. It happened.
I remember that there was some mix up and they ended up. What? Postponing it.
Yeah, but the problem is that 90% of the information that was coming out about this dinner was coming from the Twitter fingers of Justin son. So you don't really know how much of it is true And how much isn't, You know, that's not trying to be a dick, but it's like like we're talking about a project that plagiarized their white paper from nine different projects. Like those air the facts like you can't run away from that,
right? Well, I really like the walls in here.
Oh, is this one of your investors? Did? Is he one of your investors? No, not yet. All right, we're gonna leave Justin son alone, too, but yeah, but the dinner did happen, and Charlie was There is a
high school. That's nice. That's good dialogue. That's all that was
gonna happen. Like, what's your ideal case? scenario. What happens out of this dinner
like utopian one? Yeah,
sure. Best case scenario.
Everyone starts working together, and they continue working together until the end of time, creating quote value for everyone. But I think
I think people were excited about this dinner because they thought that Warren Buffett, who didn't invest in Google or Apple or anything like remotely a, you know, involved in Tech that he's gonna be like, Oh, she I'm gonna buy some big corn now I think that's what people want to You know. They want to see billions start
to flow in the
market, but it's not like it's all hype. It's like I'm sorry, but it's 90% of what Tron and Justin son does its hype. It's a market like Tron is a marketing vehicle. Nothing, nothing else. That's my opinion. I know that they're doing some stuff I can't even tell, you know, like I've been, I followed them for a while, but like, I've never
you know, I would be super surprises Warren Buffett or his Berkshire Hathaway, where to get into Krypton that that's
no, it's not gonna happen. Like what? Why why would they? Yeah, no No, absolutely not for them. So, um, to wrap up. I see. Lt's air coming back. You're saving the rain Forest market is in the green. Charlie Lee should stop tweeting on dhe Justin somehow to dinner. Essentially, that's last year. Last two weeks off Krypton use. All right, guys. Thanks for stopping by. Always. We'll try not to delete this one.
That would be
guys. Thanks again. Thanks for listening. And hopefully, maybe you will see you next week. Arm in two weeks that trying not to fly out too much now.